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Feedback: Core Weapon Mechanics (Common Recoil, Sway, Etc)

weapons mechanics recoil sway jitter handling accuracy suppression

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#1
ZenPhire

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So there is a LOT to love about the added mechanics. The more dynamic suppression with added sway and recoil makes battles more immersive and very challenging when facing direct fire.

I feel like the new dynamics feel very organic and immersive and am again amazed at the quality of implementation.

However, I feel like if recoil is affected by suppression, it should be minimal/subtle; and that the only attribute so strongly impacted, should be weapon sway.

The current offsets (penalties, whether moving or suppressed) or so high as to make it frustrating to try and kill anything while being fired at or even marginally fatigued. Even after 2 days of playing (~6 hours for me), I can't get used to the amount and have not been able to control the weapons when facing fire (it feels like trying to control the 249 from the hip in INSmod, only more difficult).

Here's my reasoning:
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Managing recoil is a highly coordinated effort and relies very much on tactile feedback. While I love the player-managed recoil approach used by INS, as opposed to other shooters' game-managed recoil, there are important accessibility concerns as well as the possibility of feeling un-intuitive.

Managing recoil in real life is practically an unconscious effort of physical coordination; and while I feel that in so many ways a mouse can become extension of a player enough to compensate and replace many of those kinds of coordinated feats and feedback loops, this does not feel like one of those feats of coordination that lends itself to the medium (mouse) well.

If the recoil is too high and is player managed, it will penalize players with lower resolution mice who don't game on high sensitivity (or high res on low sens). The amount of mouse dragging required is dramatic. If the ui device was something more akin to a joystick for 99% of players then it would matter less, but for mouse sportsmen this translates to more lifting the mouse (never ideal).

When weapon recoil is consistent (at least the base values and dynamics) it's just a matter of learning the recoil control into muscle memory. But with it SO dynamic, it comes as a real shock. A little dynamism I think will accomplish the same effect without being frustrating or overwhelming. And really I think the best path would be very little dynamism in the way of decaying modifiers, and instead, a sort of occasional random jump/hop over what is anticipated. Perhaps something in the way of normally .5hops/sec -> 4hops/sec with a [s]logarithmic[\s] exponential style curve (or linear if it's really that stressful).
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The other thought I had is that perhaps you were going for the approach of modelling a transitory stance or less than great shooting platform. However I still think this would be best reflected in weapon sway.

Perhaps if it could be clearly explained how it all fits together (recoil, sway; and the effects of suppression, fatigue, and movement on them). I could give better feedback, or at least better try to grok it.

Either way, I imagine one of your design goals is a low barrier of entry, for the game to feel intrinsic and intuitive, yet still challenging. And for that, I think there is a lot to be said for subtlety when it come to weapon dynamics. Especially recoil.

Personally I feel that sway should never exceed 10deg, and recoil should never increase beyond 150% normal. But that's just my opinion. I've learned to trust in your vision and eventual goal. =)

Anyone else?
More consistent recoil?
Sway as primary for variance?
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#2
omniconsumer

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I noticed how hard it is to control the recoil under fire.  I end up shooting the blue of the horizon sometimes it seems. 



#3
Hardcell

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agreed to much recoil effect


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#4
LeDoc

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I agree with you ZenPhire .Generally the "realistic and/or tactital shooter" make a mistake .I trying to explain ...

I'm not talking about INS 2, it's generally ...

The objective is to give a realistic game , OK . But the devs ,don't give a realistic game they give difficult game and for nothing !
For example : incredible recoil , incredible lag when you're aiming , too slow players and flexibles soldiers like bots! and more and more ...

In real life , take an imaginary riffle and aim quickly an imaginary soldier , you don't have "lag" , move , run if you want it's easy !
IT'S REALISTIC !

I like INS 2 and INS 1 because the controls and gameplay are not "too harder for nothing" but in my opinion INS 2 don't find this way ...
The armor system is not good ,you can't mix "real weapon effect" whit armor system . Yesterday i played COD on HARDCORE ,and sry to say that ...
but the weapons are really more deadly and it's more fun and ( sry again :-) ) more realistic ( ok ...whitout jumping soldiers and incredible killstreaks lol ! )
INS2 must be deadly but easy to control , in my opinion it's the key of succes .

#5
--RAWR--

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IMO there is a horrendous amount of recoil and weapon  sway. I know expecting old INSmod mechanics is pointless but I would like to see it close to that range. Then we have the sway, which feels like your walking like a penguin. I think certain guns have close to the right amount of recoil like the Shottie's and the bolt-actions, wheras everything else just feels soo wrong.



#6
I_Hate_Usernames

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I think there should be more weapon sway when moving (up and down for walking forward and backward, left and right when sidestepping).

 

Also I think there should be a bit of delay for ironsight straight after sprint, right now, it feels a bit CoDish.



#7
deadmanwalking

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The recoil of the weapons should be a reflection or the caliber. A MP 5 in real life is one of the most controllable weapons on full auto there is, to have it act like a M-14 on full auto is not realistic. The amount of climb of the weapons should be consistent with the caliber and the shooting position. If prone you have the greatest control, shoulder fire is mid point of control, and hip fire the worst.   


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#8
ZenPhire

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The recoil of the weapons should be a reflection or the caliber. A MP 5 in real life is one of the most controllable weapons on full auto there is, to have it act like a M-14 on full auto is not realistic. The amount of climb of the weapons should be consistent with the caliber and the shooting position. If prone you have the greatest control, shoulder fire is mid point of control, and hip fire the worst.   

^^

 

My advice would be to start with the weapon that has the highest real recoil, and then get those values so that they are manageable even with a low end mouse (800 -1200 dpi) and default sensitivity settings without ending up skyward. Then set all values relative to that weapons. Curve the values if there are too many weapons with too little recoil. But start with realistic and manageable, plot realistic values, then use that as base and curve until community feels there is a proper distribution. =)

 

Also, I feel like hip shooting (free-aim / shouldered-non-sighted) should have less recoil as the weapon is well braced (perhaps less vertical recoil, more horizontal?).



#9
ZenPhire

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But fellows, do be careful not to discourage use of player-managed recoil and sway.


Some terms I'll use with localized definitions here to make talking about this easier:
Sway:
  • the GAME's mechanism that creates a smooth sway to your weapon simulating the natural movement of the body.
  • (theoretically you might be able to measure this by strapping a light to someone's chest, have them face a wall and close their eyes and hold still but calm, while measuring the activity of the light on the wall, then smoothing this movement out to account our natural coordination)
Jitter:
  • the natural inaccuracy when a person is aiming a firearm, as opposed to that firearm being strapped to a cement foundation.
  • (theoretically you could measure this by attaching a IR laser pointer to a firearm and have a person hold the aim steady at a given target while tracking the movement of the beam. I say IR beam because if the person can see the beam, it will affect how they correct their jitter, and wont give as accurate a representation. Also I think it would be good to test both an amateur shooter, and someone accomplished; perhaps a sniper.)
Here's how this works (as I see it =P):
We'll start with sway. If you look at sway in game, it is simulating what the gun might do if you were to close your eyes while sighting, there will be a natural sway if you are not actively preventing it and steadying the weapon against your body's natural rhythm. You aren't supposed to look at the sway in game and think "Jeeze, I can hold my d**k steadier than this!". In player-managed systems the second half of the equation is you, actively keeping your weapon steady via the mouse. It is the product of these two things that creates the final simulated realism (programmatic natural sway + you attempting to correct it). What you are left with is a type of jitter, much more steady than the sway, yet unique for each and not based on a pseudo-random number generator. The result is organic because it is your movements contributing.

The other side of the coin are the more popular shooters where they introduce a completely random flow of values to create a jittering effect artificially, simulating the inaccuracy of the player. Or the worst: basic cone-of-fire (a la CS games), where the game takes this entirely out of your hands and you become less tied to the weapon, and simply 'point' it where to go; specifically, your bullets go somewhere randomly in a radius set by the game, so that when you are still it is a small radius, and when your are running it's a huge one.

One of the things that I love about INS, and that has inspired in me a great respect for the dame design, is that there is far more realism modeled in the weapons and you are given influence, WHILE those dynamics are plain to the eyes through the visual feedback of the first person animations! Awesome! One of the reasons I fell out of love with PR is that they introduced larger con-of-fire mechanisms and there was no feedback. I got tired of my sights being lined-up, yet bullets coming out of my barrel at an angle.

AS far as I can tell, in INS the bullets always go where the gun is pointed, and the natural accuracy of the weapons (the actual random cone of fire) is tiny (realistic). The game then affords realism in that the potential is huge! The game does not cap your potential like in other shooters where bullets are random in a cone and the fudge the difference (create immersion) with some pretty first person animations. That's why we don't need cross-hairs ever, because our bullets go where they are pointed! You just have to see (visually project) where the barrel is pointing.

In INSmod the sway was almost perfectly predictable, a nice figure 8. But your ability to counter that sway resulted in a realistic jitter as you held aim. Personally I think that organic and *mostly* predictable functions like that (the figure 8 in INS mod) are best, since you get better at controlling it and it becomes second nature (the goal if you are simulating realism). However too predictable/perfect means people can get so good at controlling it that it becomes negligible for them, and something as fundamental as sway (which we've established is really just half of the device used to simulate jitter) should also have some occasional unpredictability (though too much defeats the purpose).

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My ideal:
Sway ...
  • to simulate the body's natural sway (pared with the player's control, this creates a realistic jitter)
  • smooth, never "flinching"
  • sway is greater when moving and when suppressed
  • should not be too difficult to control, resulting in a realistic jitter
  • give a noob an unfamiliar mouse and they should control the jitter resulting in a pattern near what you would measure from a beginning shooter on the range, while a INS veteran with a familiar mouse should have a control pattern similar to a seasoned soldier or marksman.
  • is a predictable pattern with some subtle variance worked-in (subtle being key).
  • itself is never obvious enough to interfere with an easy shot (say, 1 foot diameter at 25 meters), even under fire
Flinch...
  • for irregular suppression there is a short flinch (tap....... tap.. tap.. )
  • under regular consistent fire, no flinching (tap.. tap.. tap..)
  • only first shot every 3 seconds if there has been no suppression in the last 3 seconds
  • one way to implement this would be that there is only a flinch upon ENTERING a suppressed state. in a suppressed state, sway gradually increases to a maximum, then decays fully within 3 seconds.
  • Heavy class does not flinch
Recoil ...
  • controllable without having to resort to lifting the mouse often
  • weapons have realistic values relative to each other
  • should always be quick to recover from a single shot
  • it should never be easier to put accurate fire on a target quickly with full-auto, than with semi-auto in quick succession. (when comparing auto recoil vs semi-auto recoil)
  • recoil amount is consistent unless exhausted, but in sustained automatic fire, there are some unpredictable "bumps"/"hops"
Fatigue ...
  • to have only very minor affect on performance (sway, recoil, speed)
  • unless the player is exhausted (extreme end of fatigue values), and then I can see that these extreme values we see now could be realistic and a WONDERFUL consequence of running too much.
  • has obvious feedback (audio and visual cues) to alert when a player is near exhaustion as a warning.
  • recovery should be slower, the closer to exhaustion you are.
  • Jump height relative to fatigue
As always, thanks for bearing with my feedback. =)
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#10
WILLIS

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I agree with Hard Cell

agreed to much recoil effect


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#11
Jihad

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Recoil doesn't really bother me too much. As owner of a Vz.58 which fires the 7.62x39mm round same as the AK-47 and AKM I can say the recoil is fairly close to real life. I also own a 16" M4 as well as 20" A2 and while INS may have slightly more recoil on single shot than those two have, firing in bursts the recoil is almost spot on from what I was accustomed to using both weapons systems in real life for 16 years in the Army.

 

Recoil and sway are another two key factors I enjoy about this games as it seems the trend now in games is to create laser guns with little to no recoil for the console kiddies.


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#12
Snuffeldjuret

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I dislike big cones of fire, and prefer recoil and sway. Too big difference in recoil can be confusing though, while massive sway is easier to understand as I see it before I shoot.


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#13
=AWOL= Father McKensie

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Recoil the recoil is good when you are talking about weapons fired while standing.

 

For those who think it is too high, If it were reduced while prone or crouched and/or if they added a feature where if you are stationary and adjacent to an obstacle your recoil goes down considerably? (This is to assume that someone standing next to hard cover is going to use it for support while firing). 


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#14
ZenPhire

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Recoil the recoil is good when you are talking about weapons fired while standing.

 

For those who think it is too high, If it were reduced while prone or crouched and/or if they added a feature where if you are stationary and adjacent to an obstacle your recoil goes down considerably? (This is to assume that someone standing next to hard cover is going to use it for support while firing). 

^^ Yes please!!!



#15
Snuffeldjuret

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Do people think it is too high in general though? Or just too high while being suppressed?

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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: weapons, mechanics, recoil, sway, jitter, handling, accuracy, suppression

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