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Simple Classes (built from existing system, low risk)


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#1
ZenPhire

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Well you know a lot of us continually brainstorm and constantly gather community feedback from players on the LMC servers, regarding our brainstorms so as to present battle hardened ideas that already have been pre-apoproved by at least a substantial portion of the active INS gamers. Striving to find ideas that appeal to pretty much everyone.

This is one such brainstorm that has been ongoing for 2 weeks now and more furiously the last 4 days; involving many people all debating vigorously on the merits of classes and such. This is not an ideal proposal, as we have found that many people are very split as to exactly what the classes should be. But so far, all have agreed that this proposal embodies the best step forward towards a perfect compromise.

This is mostly a simple step in the right direction so as to better feel-out what the community wants the next step to be. Plus this makes critical changes that 99% of people agree should happen now, while leaving the rest virtually untouched (though creating a more accessible face, that is easy to implement).

We hope to soon try and describe the path that most people we have talked to are excited about for the future (mosty deaing with a weight/encumberment dynamic deciding speed etc). And to speculate on how to easily get there from this implimentation. The best thing about this proposal is that it's simple, and has a clear development path to a more robust class system that is very popular with everyone we've talked to (more on that later).

Credits:
Inception: LedEnema, ZenPhire.
Major contributors: ZenPhire, LedEnema, Deadmanwalking, Klose, Parker, Quanto, RAWR, Nesquick, HARDCELL, (more please tell me if I've left you out, sorry!).
And huge thanks to the MANY minor contributes who gave feedback, vetoed early ideas, and directed our brainstorming every step of the way.

=====================================================================

Goals:
- simple simple simple, easy to implement, built on current systems
- retain current armor/weight class system (for now, first-step remember) just make it a selection in the load-out/customization screen.
- retain current strengths: flexible, open, customization.
- influence players into team oriented roles, make team roles the focus, but not a restriction. via default load-outs
- still allow for all possibilities (underneath it's the same system, you can customize the load-out after you select it, trading certain upgrades fro others).
- no restrictions or hurdles, just make the current system more accessible and usable

To change in order to implement:
1) Armor is bought. Medium costs [1], Heavy costs [2]. Armor slot (like for grenades, drops down into "Light / Medium / Heavy").
2) Players can return purchases (so that they can switch class, load-out, or team without loss of suppy)
3) Players begin each round with (min) [4] supply (this is what is used for load-outs).
4) Supply is more rare. Only team based, only from objectives. (to balance the starting [4])


Classes are essentially load-outs that can be customized after selection. Classes are based on the primary weapon.


Example team/class select screen:
_________________________________
| Security ()switch |
`````````````````````````````````
_________________________________
| Recon | Rifleman | Sapper |
=================================
| Sniper | Marksman | Support |
`````````````````````````````````


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Load-outs (spends the starting [4] supply):
Rifleman ..M16/AKM, Medium Class[1], Armor Piercing Ammo[1], Foregrip[1], Frag Grenade[1]
Marksman ..M14/SKS, Medium Class[1], Armor Piercing Ammo[1], 4X Scope[2], Frag Grenade[1]
Support ...M249/RPK, Heavy Class[2], Holotech Sight[1], Frag Grenade[1]
Sapper ....M590/TOZ, Heavy Class[2], Foregrip[1], Flash Grenade[1]
Recon .....MP5/MP40, Light Class[0], Hollow Point Ammo[1], Suppressor[1], Smoke Grenade[1], Holotech Sight[1]
Sniper ....M40/Mosin[1], Light Class[0], AP Pistol Ammo[1], Extended Mag[1], Smoke Grenade[1]




All clicking on a class does, is a.) exchange all current upgrades, b.) purchase the class items one at a time (in the order shown above), then takes you to the same current load-out menu we all know and love. =)
You can then modify your load-out simply by changing stuff (de-select [exchange], select [purchase]).
This accounts for possible lack of supply too, since it just purchases in order so what you can afford, it gets (prioritizing armor, then ammo, then role tactical attachment, lastly grenade and any left-overs)

Would really be ideal if the classes and load-outs were eventually in scripts (customizable).
Eventually need cvars for starting supply ( mp_supplyins X ; mp_supplysec X ; one for each team to allow for future asymmetry in push and possible themed rounds)
...and perhaps for other aspects ( mp_allowsell 0|1 ; mp_supplyonkill 0|1 ; mp_teamsupply 0|1 ; )
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#2
ZenPhire

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These are ideas we have had that many have supported, but are not directly relevant to THIS discussion on just the simple first-step class system. This is just to show that we have spent considerable time ALSO thinking about the way forward.

Possible Future Features:
- Limit certain items per team, effectively limiting classes. [via scripts] (only 2 sniper rifles, only 4 LMGs, only 4 suppressors, etc)
- Dynamic weight system (assign weight properties to all items), as you build your class your weight increases and determines light/medium/heavy at certain thresholds
- Armor (becoming: none, lvl2, lvl4) is only armor (damage modifiers, and hopefully penetration based down the road);
- ...while all other aspects of the current class system are retained via weight class Light/Med/Heavy determined by weight of selected items;
- ...and you start out with a lowish but reasonable amount of ammo, and you can add bandoliers (add 50% of standard ammo) that have weight as well.
- "Custom" class that remembers your choices (only first [4] spent)
- Multiple weapon groups per class (needs discussion)
- eventually the ability to drop your weapon and a bandolier, allowing ability to buy a bandolier of ammo you don't use to resupply a teammate, like a LMG. Or maybe bandoliers contain whatever ammo is used by the person who opens it? Like a generic resupply (but not for nades), and it's in your weapon select, and you use mouse 1 to "open" it whereupon it resupplies you.

Again these here are just ideas to illustrate the possibilities forward, not a part of THIS proposal, but possibly of the NEXT proposal should this one gain traction and support. As always with our efforts, we take the lead from the community. After all this proposal is only being brought forward after weeks of scrutiny by many players. =)
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#3
Mohawk

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This sounds like a good adaptation of the ongoing in game discussions. 

 

Mohawk

 


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#4
Reita

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I like this concept - Maybe give it a shot, push it as an update and see if everything works out.


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#5
Hardcell

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good ideas


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#6
Burt_Reynolds

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I really like the idea of not having to mess with the load outs unless you want to and everyone starts out with decent gear based on job role. I also feel stongly that supply points should be issued to players that capture points instead of kills.



#7
eXnihilo

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One of the things I really like about this is that there is the potential for balance, from the first round to the last.

Heavy armor and armor piercing, both from the start.

No one has an unfair advantage that diminishes or vice versa.

#8
Jihad

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I like this idea. It retains the classes from INS (with a couple of additions) and keeps INS2's distinct feel yet keeps everything balanced in the process. Kinda like the best of both worlds. I think this could make a lot of INS vets very happy who were expecting something more like the mod yet keep those who are new to Insurgency paying as well. ********* like this is what's going to keep the community going and keep this game alive instead of being the "in thing" for 6 months and then people lose interest like other games.


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#9
kamk

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I really like the idea of not having to mess with the load outs unless you want to and everyone starts out with decent gear based on job role. I also feel stongly that supply points should be issued to players that capture points instead of kills.

+1

- still allow for all possibilities - meaning i could still get any combination i want to long term with enough supply, but not right on start?
> so basically those 6 classes are just pre-defined classes, and everyone starts with 4 supply, or pre-defined with 4 supply already spent (which i can not spend again)?

- what about RPG / C4, and future weapons?

- Rent this space! -  


#10
Argyll

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Zen, this is almost identical to what we are trying out. Thanks to all who were involved in thinking of this system. I thought you might be happy with the direction we're already pursuing - and this makes me confident that you will for sure.

 

Some differences that we are considering (and I think something that may have worried you) is that we have 'advanced' classes that require supply points to unlock (I was thinking 3 points, since that's easy to attain for anyone). This should be tied into a server setting so they can all be unlocked. [This would later tie into a persistent ranking system that would simply give a higher rank a set amount of supply points at the beginning of any game so they can instantly unlock the advanced classes or use the points at the start for other kit upgrades.]

 

Another difference is I also proposed having multiple weapon options for classes. So the Marksman and Sniper classes you propose are actually just one, with the option of choosing the M14/SKS or the M40/Mosin. In my concept, it is an advanced class because it can choose an SMG as a secondary weapon upgrade.

 

Actually, I was going to publish my entire concept for you all to see... not sure if it needs one thread, or if this should just be it - so here... I wrote this early in March:

 

This design concept is based upon community feedback 
and thinking of how that demand can tie into the systems 
currently in place. It also takes into account the need 
for a persistent system that players will be playing to 
achieve something beyond the current match. 

Note: This is a suggestion that should be discussed and 
approved by the team before implementation.

PLAYER CLASSES

Each player class has an advanced class to unlock. 
This requires the use of 3 supply points. The goal of 
player classes is to provide a point of reference for 
players who are looking to perform a certain role. 
Advanced classes allow players to advance their skill 
for greater access of equipment and specialized roles.  
The number of each player class will not be limited 
based on team or squad.

Recon    -->  Marksman

Assault  -->  Specialist

Support  -->  Sapper


WEAPONS AND ARMOUR UPGRADES BY CLASS

Each class has a unique set of weapons and equipment 
configurations to choose from. They are limited based on battlefield role.

RECON: Quickly secure objectives, try to locate enemy, and break from combat.

- Light armour [upgrade: medium for 2 pts]
- SMG [upgrades: holo sight, silencer, laser point, AP, HP]
- Assault rifle [upgrades: holo sight, foregrip, flashlight, AP, HP]
- Semi rifle [upgrades: silencer, holo sight, foregrip, AP, HP]
- Pistol [upgrades: laser, silencer, extended mag, AP, HP]
- Explosives [only 1 of frag, flash, or smoke]
- Kit upgrade [camelbak]

MARKSMAN: Hang back and provide accurate fire.

- Light armour [upgrade: medium for 2 pts]
- Semi rifle [upgrades: heavy barrel, silencer, holo sight, 4x scope, foregrip, AP, HP]
- Sniper rifle [upgrades: bipod, AP, HP]
- Pistol [upgrades: flashlight, laser point, silencer, extended mag, AP, HP]
- Explosives [only 1 of frag, flash, or smoke]
- Kit upgrade [camelbak, extra explosive, SMG replace pistol, extra ammo]

ASSAULT: Close with and destroy enemy to secure objectives.

- Medium armour [upgrade: heavy for 2pts]
- Assault rifle [upgrades: holo sight, foregrip, AP, HP]
- Semi rifle [upgrades: holo sight, foregrip, AP, HP]
- Pistol [upgrades: laser sight, extended mag, AP, HP]
- Explosives [only 1 of frag, RPG, flash, or smoke]
- Kit upgrade [camelbak, extra explosive, extra ammo]

SPECIALIST: Access to wide range of weapons and upgrades to effectively secure objectives.

- Medium armour [upgrade: heavy or light for 2pts]
- SMG [upgrades: holo sight, silencer, laser point, AP, HP]
- Assault rifle [upgrades: foregrip, flashlight, holo sight, 4x scope, silencer, laser point, AP, HP]
- Semi rifle [upgrades: foregrip, holo sight, 4x scope, silencer, laser point, AP, HP]
- Shotgun [upgrades: foregrip, laser sight, holo sight, flashlight, slug]
- Pistol [upgrades: extended mag, silencer, laser sight, AP, HP]
- Explosives [only 1 of frag, RPG, flash, claymore, or smoke]
- Kit upgrade [camelbak, extra explosive, extra ammo]

SUPPORT: Provide suppressive fire for their team’s attack on objectives.

- Medium armour [upgrade: heavy for 2pts]
- LMG [upgrade: heavy barrel, AP, HP, all tracer, extended mag]
- Shotgun [upgrade: flashlight, laser point, slug]
- Pistol [upgrades: flashlight, extended mag, laser sight, AP, HP]
- Explosives [only 1 of frag, flash, claymore, or smoke]
- Kit upgrade [camelbak, extra explosive, extra ammo]

SAPPER: Rig explosives and gain access to areas of the map, destroy objectives.

- Heavy armour [upgrade: medium for 2pts]
- Assault rifle [upgrades: foregrip, holo sight, laser point, silencer, flashlight, AP, HP]
- Shotgun [upgrades: flashlight, holo sight, laser point, slug]
- Explosives [2 of frag, flash, claymore, C4, smoke]
- Kit upgrade [camelbak, extra explosive, extra ammo]

RANKS

A ranking system is important to introduce a persistent
skill improvement system. The ranks advance based upon 
in-game medal achievement and will manifest as Steam 
achievements so they are publicly displayed. They also 
affect how many supply points a player can begin a game 
with. This also affects how quickly they can access 
player classes and equipment in game - rewarding the 
most active and skilled players.

0	Grunt
I	Private			5 medals
II	Corporal		10 medals
III	Sergeant		25 medals
IV	Sergeant-Major	        50 medals
V	Lieutenant		75 medals

MEDALS

Each time you place first for your team in a 
ranked server, you receive a medal. 

RANK AFFECT ON SUPPLY POINTS

For the level of rank you are, you begin a fresh game 
with that many supply points. From a back-end 
perspective, check to see the highest rank achievement 
a player has and assign them supply points.

i.e. Sergeant will receive 3 points to start a game.

 

 

Now, before you go tearing it apart everyone... a few things:

 

- The upgrade to advanced class isn't a linear sequence as it's illustrated. That was meant to show a natural progression. This means you can play as Recon and then upgrade to Sapper without playing as Support.

 

- The ranking system will not be implemented right away, and if/when it does, it probably won't be based on 'medals' (since it's hard for some people to be first often) but some other variables we come up with.

 

- There are some equipment noted here that don't exist (yet).

 

- This can and will change based upon how it plays and your feedback! It's merely a starting point.

 

Otherwise... let's continue this great discussion! :D


 

"The clever combatant looks to the effect of combined energy, and does not require too much from individuals." - Sun Tzu


#11
Hardcell

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ranked servers will ruin this game


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#12
WhiteWolf

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Argyll, I like the classes you describe.

 

BUT:

 

I think that a rank / persistency system would be a terrible decision and I highly recommend NOT to do this.

 

Think of competitive players. They want to have access to all classes without struggling, right from the beginning. There should in no way be differences between the players in progression and unlock nonsense within a clan-war. One team with.. let's say 2 players in it, who don't have access to all classes, would have a possible disadvantage. This would hurt competitive play in the beginning phase and if clans recruit new players, maybe even later as well.

 

These 6 classes are fine and I would like to see them implemented and test them out.

Achievements are fine, but they should only be for display purposes and not affect any gameplay. They should be funny and implemented in a way that they can be safely ignored.

 

Unlocks put players in an annoying treadmill and personally, I find unlock systems like in BattleField 3 more disgusting and frustrating than motivating.

Please DON'T do that. Keep the DNA of the original mod in the game. Insurgency should remain competitive for clans and with esports in mind.

 

You can implement these classes and make them available for everyone, you could then limit the amount of each class within the team to a certain percentage (scales with amount of players), so you don't get a team full of marksmen or sappers. If you want to give more freedom of choice, forget the percentage. But don't introduce unlocking to the game.

 

Feel free to introduce ranks to the game, BUT without affecting gameplay. You can use them for matchmaking / balancing purposes and people will know what they are playing against. But again, don't bind any unlocking of gear or classes to them.

 

 

EDIT:

 

I'd like to add a final thought to this. For me, there is a certain beauty in a competitive, teambased, tactical shooter like Insurgency always was.

You start your round with a new life and a set of tools given to you. A certain amount of choice is given to you, so you can pick your tools and the way you want to play with your role. And then... you go out and make it happen. It is a simple, yet beautiful flow. Pick your tools, then move, try out the strategy you might have in mind and adjust to the dynamics of the match and your team. It should remain as simple and beautiful as that.

 

If you introduce differences between players, this flow will be disturbed. Every single player must be given the same choices, or it will be unfair and broken.


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#13
Argyll

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I should have noted that I don't think the persistence/ranking is mandatory. I am all for the server setting their own variables, so they can set a class to 0 supply point required, or they can set it so everyone starts with X number of supply points, etc.


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"The clever combatant looks to the effect of combined energy, and does not require too much from individuals." - Sun Tzu


#14
WhiteWolf

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I should have noted that I don't think the persistence/ranking is mandatory. I am all for the server setting their own variables, so they can set a class to 0 supply point required, or they can set it so everyone starts with X number of supply points, etc.

 

Yes, but that still allows to create differences between the players and their possibilities at the beginning of the round.

You should know humans a bit. Different possibilities will result in envy and frustration, some people might even feel hate, because they feel having a disadvantage by design, as long as they don't invest a lot of time into playing the game.

 

The classes you created sound great to me, just make them available for everyone without artificial hurdles. :)

 

Ranks will motivate people just by showing off their skill in a number and you can balance public matches using these values later, if so desired. It would put them to a better use.

 

EDIT:

 

I have a nice idea for the ranks: you could create special weapon skins (cosmetic only) for the highest rank to show the status ingame. A golden AK and a camouflage M16 for example. :)



#15
ZenPhire

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My only hesitation is the whole "ranked" servers vs "unranked" servers. I don't know, it changes people. I'd have to think on this ranking thing, my gut tells me to bash it in with a sledgehammer, but logically many people crave it, and maybe it could be done right? I just see SO much potential for tarnishing the spirit of INS. I need to meditate on this.






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