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Simple Classes (built from existing system, low risk)


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#31
ZenPhire

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Any word on a time frame for the first steps? Maybe just armor being purchased? (none, Level-2 (Kevlar), Level-4 (Plate))



#32
Jetliner

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Possibly just CS style, anyone?

Ex: Kevlar, Helmet, or both.

 

More simplistic, or complex is what I am asking from you guys.


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#33
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Depends, is the helmet (I mean the functional helmet that deflects a shot and gets shot-off) coming back? I would love to see the helmet have it's own hitbox, so that shots to the low face and neck are still a kill.

 

Either way I like the idea of eventually separating the two (armor and helmet). Makes for more strategic choices and flexibility, and I see that as a huge PLUS. =)


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#34
SwarleyAUS

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I like Led Enemas suggestions... being akin to INS1 is what I hope for. Specifically, regarding classes it is because if any class can buy any weapon, team tactics are thrown out the window. To date Ive seen whole teams of snipers and teams with all riflemen (albeit the latter is less of an issue on smaller maps) - eliminating tactics such as cover fire (via snipers or LMG'ers) which is a big part of the game, I feel. You need to use cover fire to advance protected, as a decoy, and to flank. Without a limit to the number of players in a certain class in a game, stalemates could occur such as that of a mostly-sniper team or a mostly-LMG team vs <team 2>.

 

I also feel armour should be (while getting to be a bit like CS) paid for, and expensive, hopefully rewarding those who PTO. On the topic or armour, if helmets are to be implemented, they wouldnt be all that good surely: 4.6, 5.7 and 7.62 should all penetrate just fine. Shrapnel protection is the main reason soldiers wear them isnt it? So only decrease damage taken if you do a handstand on top of a live 'nade? Haha nah maybe prone to reduce damage taken slightly if it lands nearby (>5m)??

 

Personally, Im also down with few, more realistic attachments and - as stated in other threads - unequal attachments (ie the US have LAM, so INS might the have 'dual mags taped together' attachment) as long as there are Aimpoints, ACOGs, foregrips, suppressors, bipods, grenade launchers and such. Some attachments would be restricted to certain classes, ie LMG class with Eotechs or ACOGs and bipods; Snipers with suppressors, bipods and any scope; Riflemen with ARs and their foregrips or GLs and any scope.

 

Food for thought hopefully! Thanks for reading =)

 

Swarls


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#35
Gnalvl

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Well, it basically sounds like you guys are moving towards a Loudout system rather than a Class system, where classes just exist as "presets" for your loadout so you don't have to individually choose every piece of gear every time you play. I like this idea.
 
Regarding the teamplay issue where everyone takes sniper cause they feel like it, perhaps this could be a server-side option: in "Mercenary" mode, everyone is allowed to use custom loadouts, in "Class" mode, the team is divided into fireteams with a specific number of classes for each fire team - basically a setup like INS1 or America's Army.
 
One thing I've noticed is that in the latest version, movement speeds and weapon handling in regular play is about the same as realism mode. This implies to me that the dev team doesn't want the "non-realism" mode to be exceedingly unrealistic. If that's the case, then maybe weapon handling and movement should be identical between the two modes, and instead, the distinction between the "casual" and "hardcore" modes would be how restrictive the class/loadout system is.
 
In other words, the "merc" mode would appeal to casual players because they could make their dream loadout of random equipment and do whatever they want. The "class" mode would appeal to more hardcore players who want to work together like a real squad. A system like this could do the best job of satisfying both crowds.
 
Personally, I don't mind having a casual-friendly mode as long as there is a realistic mode for those of us that want it. I support the devs' rights to maintain a casual friendly mode to meet any financial/commercial goals, so my suggestions above are just ideas rather than requests. I am simply pointing out that if the movement/weapon mechanics are as similar in both modes as they are now, and it works well, maybe it makes sense to run with that and try to create the casual appeal in a different manner.

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#36
SwarleyAUS

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Or restrict a Mercenary system for Firefight, Occupy, Coop, etc and Class system for Push, Battle?

However a server setting up these parameters might be better for game longevity though.

#37
Gnalvl

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Depends, is the helmet (I mean the functional helmet that deflects a shot and gets shot-off) coming back? I would love to see the helmet have it's own hitbox, so that shots to the low face and neck are still a kill.

 

Either way I like the idea of eventually separating the two (armor and helmet). Makes for more strategic choices and flexibility, and I see that as a huge PLUS. =)

 

You know, I always though CS's helmet system was silly, but I recently saw an old post on Box of Truth, where the guy shot standard military helmets with various rounds. Not only will helmets stop a .45 ACP, so will a kevlar groin protector!

 

In all seriousness though, I wouldn't want to see helmet protection implemented unless the hitbox was correct. 

 

I have also come to the conclusion that in the current game, armor is nowhere near effective enough. Regardless of if you are medium or heavy class, everyone seems to die in 1-3 hits. I have yet to see anyone withstand the number of rounds that a level III or IV vest is supposed to. Because of this, it doesn't seem worth it to take anything but the light class - the armor slows you down and doesn't seem to help you any.

 

It also doesn't help that picking the heavy class as Insurgent gets you TK'ed religiously.



#38
dogs::mr.pink

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Ok, iam sorry if it was brought up before, but iam too lazy to read through all the topics (that have increased recently due to the steam early access)...

 

How about this one:

 

The Capping of objectives is not possible for everyone, but for e.g. the scout class. That would bring an even more awesome tactical aspect to the game. Means, your teammates (assault, support) have to cover the objective, before a scout goes there and caps. Oh man, I like that idea! Really!


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#39
Mushishigami

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Ok, iam sorry if it was brought up before, but iam too lazy to read through all the topics (that have increased recently due to the steam early access)...

 

How about this one:

 

The Capping of objectives is not possible for everyone, but for e.g. the scout class. That would bring an even more awesome tactical aspect to the game. Means, your teammates (assault, support) have to cover the objective, before a scout goes there and caps. Oh man, I like that idea! Really!

 

I don't like it.

Sure, such a restriction would force tactical teamplay, but it really doesn't feel like Ins..

Even if my class tell me where i should be and what i should do, i don't want to be absolutely useless when my teammates are down or late.

Everyone should be able to cap, even the sniper (you can do a lot of things with a pistol, i've experienced that).

And no class should be made for capping, OR, it should be good at barely anything that is run and control (i can't tell how you could do that), but should not have advantages on capping speed or anything over other classes; in my opinion, classes should only be about equipment.



#40
CubicalCube

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Well, it basically sounds like you guys are moving towards a Loudout system rather than a Class system, where classes just exist as "presets" for your loadout so you don't have to individually choose every piece of gear every time you play. I like this idea.
 
Regarding the teamplay issue where everyone takes sniper cause they feel like it, perhaps this could be a server-side option: in "Mercenary" mode, everyone is allowed to use custom loadouts, in "Class" mode, the team is divided into fireteams with a specific number of classes for each fire team - basically a setup like INS1 or America's Army.
 
One thing I've noticed is that in the latest version, movement speeds and weapon handling in regular play is about the same as realism mode. This implies to me that the dev team doesn't want the "non-realism" mode to be exceedingly unrealistic. If that's the case, then maybe weapon handling and movement should be identical between the two modes, and instead, the distinction between the "casual" and "hardcore" modes would be how restrictive the class/loadout system is.
 
In other words, the "merc" mode would appeal to casual players because they could make their dream loadout of random equipment and do whatever they want. The "class" mode would appeal to more hardcore players who want to work together like a real squad. A system like this could do the best job of satisfying both crowds.
 
Personally, I don't mind having a casual-friendly mode as long as there is a realistic mode for those of us that want it. I support the devs' rights to maintain a casual friendly mode to meet any financial/commercial goals, so my suggestions above are just ideas rather than requests. I am simply pointing out that if the movement/weapon mechanics are as similar in both modes as they are now, and it works well, maybe it makes sense to run with that and try to create the casual appeal in a different manner.

I am so digging this. Couldn't agree more with you. (I just wish there's a class with SKS, H- Barrel and ACOG. Great for giving mid-long range support)


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#41
GenaSG

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Zen, this is almost identical to what we are trying out. Thanks to all who were involved in thinking of this system. I thought you might be happy with the direction we're already pursuing - and this makes me confident that you will for sure.

 

Some differences that we are considering (and I think something that may have worried you) is that we have 'advanced' classes that require supply points to unlock (I was thinking 3 points, since that's easy to attain for anyone). This should be tied into a server setting so they can all be unlocked. [This would later tie into a persistent ranking system that would simply give a higher rank a set amount of supply points at the beginning of any game so they can instantly unlock the advanced classes or use the points at the start for other kit upgrades.]

 

Another difference is I also proposed having multiple weapon options for classes. So the Marksman and Sniper classes you propose are actually just one, with the option of choosing the M14/SKS or the M40/Mosin. In my concept, it is an advanced class because it can choose an SMG as a secondary weapon upgrade.

 

Actually, I was going to publish my entire concept for you all to see... not sure if it needs one thread, or if this should just be it - so here... I wrote this early in March:

This design concept is based upon community feedback 
and thinking of how that demand can tie into the systems 
currently in place. It also takes into account the need 
for a persistent system that players will be playing to 
achieve something beyond the current match. 

Note: This is a suggestion that should be discussed and 
approved by the team before implementation.

PLAYER CLASSES

Each player class has an advanced class to unlock. 
This requires the use of 3 supply points. The goal of 
player classes is to provide a point of reference for 
players who are looking to perform a certain role. 
Advanced classes allow players to advance their skill 
for greater access of equipment and specialized roles.  
The number of each player class will not be limited 
based on team or squad.

Recon    -->  Marksman

Assault  -->  Specialist

Support  -->  Sapper


WEAPONS AND ARMOUR UPGRADES BY CLASS

Each class has a unique set of weapons and equipment 
configurations to choose from. They are limited based on battlefield role.

RECON: Quickly secure objectives, try to locate enemy, and break from combat.

- Light armour [upgrade: medium for 2 pts]
- SMG [upgrades: holo sight, silencer, laser point, AP, HP]
- Assault rifle [upgrades: holo sight, foregrip, flashlight, AP, HP]
- Semi rifle [upgrades: silencer, holo sight, foregrip, AP, HP]
- Pistol [upgrades: laser, silencer, extended mag, AP, HP]
- Explosives [only 1 of frag, flash, or smoke]
- Kit upgrade [camelbak]

MARKSMAN: Hang back and provide accurate fire.

- Light armour [upgrade: medium for 2 pts]
- Semi rifle [upgrades: heavy barrel, silencer, holo sight, 4x scope, foregrip, AP, HP]
- Sniper rifle [upgrades: bipod, AP, HP]
- Pistol [upgrades: flashlight, laser point, silencer, extended mag, AP, HP]
- Explosives [only 1 of frag, flash, or smoke]
- Kit upgrade [camelbak, extra explosive, SMG replace pistol, extra ammo]

ASSAULT: Close with and destroy enemy to secure objectives.

- Medium armour [upgrade: heavy for 2pts]
- Assault rifle [upgrades: holo sight, foregrip, AP, HP]
- Semi rifle [upgrades: holo sight, foregrip, AP, HP]
- Pistol [upgrades: laser sight, extended mag, AP, HP]
- Explosives [only 1 of frag, RPG, flash, or smoke]
- Kit upgrade [camelbak, extra explosive, extra ammo]

SPECIALIST: Access to wide range of weapons and upgrades to effectively secure objectives.

- Medium armour [upgrade: heavy or light for 2pts]
- SMG [upgrades: holo sight, silencer, laser point, AP, HP]
- Assault rifle [upgrades: foregrip, flashlight, holo sight, 4x scope, silencer, laser point, AP, HP]
- Semi rifle [upgrades: foregrip, holo sight, 4x scope, silencer, laser point, AP, HP]
- Shotgun [upgrades: foregrip, laser sight, holo sight, flashlight, slug]
- Pistol [upgrades: extended mag, silencer, laser sight, AP, HP]
- Explosives [only 1 of frag, RPG, flash, claymore, or smoke]
- Kit upgrade [camelbak, extra explosive, extra ammo]

SUPPORT: Provide suppressive fire for their team’s attack on objectives.

- Medium armour [upgrade: heavy for 2pts]
- LMG [upgrade: heavy barrel, AP, HP, all tracer, extended mag]
- Shotgun [upgrade: flashlight, laser point, slug]
- Pistol [upgrades: flashlight, extended mag, laser sight, AP, HP]
- Explosives [only 1 of frag, flash, claymore, or smoke]
- Kit upgrade [camelbak, extra explosive, extra ammo]

SAPPER: Rig explosives and gain access to areas of the map, destroy objectives.

- Heavy armour [upgrade: medium for 2pts]
- Assault rifle [upgrades: foregrip, holo sight, laser point, silencer, flashlight, AP, HP]
- Shotgun [upgrades: flashlight, holo sight, laser point, slug]
- Explosives [2 of frag, flash, claymore, C4, smoke]
- Kit upgrade [camelbak, extra explosive, extra ammo]

RANKS

A ranking system is important to introduce a persistent
skill improvement system. The ranks advance based upon 
in-game medal achievement and will manifest as Steam 
achievements so they are publicly displayed. They also 
affect how many supply points a player can begin a game 
with. This also affects how quickly they can access 
player classes and equipment in game - rewarding the 
most active and skilled players.

0	Grunt
I	Private			5 medals
II	Corporal		10 medals
III	Sergeant		25 medals
IV	Sergeant-Major	        50 medals
V	Lieutenant		75 medals

MEDALS

Each time you place first for your team in a 
ranked server, you receive a medal. 

RANK AFFECT ON SUPPLY POINTS

For the level of rank you are, you begin a fresh game 
with that many supply points. From a back-end 
perspective, check to see the highest rank achievement 
a player has and assign them supply points.

i.e. Sergeant will receive 3 points to start a game.

Now, before you go tearing it apart everyone... a few things:

 

- The upgrade to advanced class isn't a linear sequence as it's illustrated. That was meant to show a natural progression. This means you can play as Recon and then upgrade to Sapper without playing as Support.

 

- The ranking system will not be implemented right away, and if/when it does, it probably won't be based on 'medals' (since it's hard for some people to be first often) but some other variables we come up with.

 

- There are some equipment noted here that don't exist (yet).

 

- This can and will change based upon how it plays and your feedback! It's merely a starting point.

 

Otherwise... let's continue this great discussion! :D

No Sniper support at the beginning of the round? Maybe DMR as default and Bolt action rifle as Upgrade(with better zoom/accuracy)?

To be honest, I like it how it is now(in terms of classes). 
I think it is also a nice idea to use weight system like in Infiltration or ,excuse me guys, BLOPS2(Don't beat me to much). Take whatever you need but you have limited (weight-points). Open new weapons/equipment during battle using existing(achievable) point system. Create your own load out during battle that fits you or battle situation. 


Insurgency is awesome!!!


#42
FlyingDry

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So is the new class system going to be like the one Argyll posted at beginning of the thread? Or did you guys make up a new design? 



#43
2jzo

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Holy thread revive batman.

I'm sure it's already been decided and they're working on it for the beta.  No point in asking and bringing back a dead discussion...


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#44
ZenPhire

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It will be similar what was outlined in the OP only with a squad system, and some other goodies. =)

Just wait and see. So much is shaping up right now and the Beta should be a huge leap in the right direction. At the very least it will be the biggest and most anticipated update till Baghdad and the return of push. ;) (not that baghdad will be an official map, I'm not sure of plans there... but it's my most anticipated!)


Edited by ZenPhire, 07 August 2013 - 05:47 AM.





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